The Revenue Lab

Ryane (00:00.698)
Okay. Hey everyone. Hope you're all doing well. This is a podcast episode with Mitchell Keller, who has a really interesting background in the space. He's done a lot of different things and has now gone into focus on cold email and prospecting and straight away he is, he's gone straight to the top, working on some really sophisticated prospecting strategies that are quite reflective of this kind of new wave of

doing cold email and sales. And when I saw the post he was doing about the different approaches he was taking, I knew we had to get him on the pod. So without further ado, Mitchell, how you doing?

Mitchell Keller (00:41.678)
I'm doing amazing. Amazing. Early morning here, uh, stuck in the middle of winter in Canada. So just trying to escape the winter depression basically by, uh, hitting the sauna as much as possible. How are you doing?

Ryane (00:43.362)
Good to.

Ryane (00:54.489)
Yeah, yeah. I'm also in the middle of winter in London, trying to avoid the seasonal depression. Unfortunately, you know, we're not blessed with saunas. It's not culturally a very popular thing. But from having travelled, I've realised it definitely should be. It definitely should be.

Mitchell Keller (01:01.124)
Yep.

Mitchell Keller (01:07.682)
Ah.

Mitchell Keller (01:14.49)
Keep me saying that, keep me saying, brother.

Ryane (01:16.91)
100%, 100%. But aside from a man who loves saunas, tell us a little bit about yourself, what you're doing at the moment, and some of the cool things you've been up to.

Mitchell Keller (01:28.95)
Yeah, sure. So I'll give you a little like keynote, I guess. Yeah, I started my first agency back in 2020, just kind of end of 2020 while I was working on a nuclear power plant. And basically, I stumbled my way into Web3. Crypto was kind of blowing up and I started writing articles for VC. And to be honest, there was a huge gap in the market.

Ryane (01:33.479)
Yeah, perfect.

Ryane (01:47.735)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (01:56.058)
for one, English speakers and number two, I actually had at the time already seven years of experience doing copywriting for e-commerce brands. One of my best buddies growing up at 15, he had already founded his first e-commerce brands and by 18, he was running at like six figures a month. So I had a huge opportunity to just kind of learn the ropes of, of copywriting and marketing early on. Lo and behold, you know, it ended up being super freaking easy, which is why I say I built an agency by accident.

Ryane (02:14.986)
Mmm.

Ryane (02:19.734)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (02:25.738)
Um, in my bio, if anyone checks me out, the reason is, is because, you know, by having a gap in the market where, you know, English speaking, plus the tailwinds of, you know, the crypto bull run kind of just riding up money, pouring into the space. I hopped on sales calls and it was like a 95% closing rate. So lo and behold, kind of shot up, hired a team out of Brazil, partnered with a couple people from my area.

Uh, one that was pretty technical. Another that was actually just, you know, I started the gig with, he was, uh, one of my, uh, coworkers actually at the nuclear plan. And we went from zero to a million in 10 months. And then from there we had a peak, um, monthly revenue of about 130,000. And then crypto kind of blew up to be honest, crypto kind of blew up. We had like, uh, for those not familiar, we had like a couple pretty big.

You know, DeFi platforms explode, $40 billion wiped out. And then I had to get like a lot better at sales, scale back up to 40K. Shit blew up again, blah, scale back up to 40K one more time. And I was like, okay, I need to pivot out of Web3. And I hit on to cold email. And the reason I hit cold email is because, man, that's how I got all my clients in Web3. And I was like, Web3 was a bad market that I was getting clients. So why not see if I can apply these principles?

Ryane (03:35.302)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (03:49.054)
And, you know, I had already set up like unique scraping on Twitter and stuff to find projects using keywords. And I was like, I bet you I have something that is new in this market, or at least like good enough that it's different from the rest of the competition. So let's give it a try. Fired up that agency, netted six clients in 30 days and was like, Oh my gosh. And I literally just had to turn off campaigns. Uh, it was a 10,000 contact campaign. I only went through 3000 of them.

Ryane (03:53.934)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (04:18.586)
before I got like first six clients, I was like, okay, this is it. And then I started delivering cold email for a bit and I was like, man, I don't know if I want to be in the service industry forever, you know? And so I started reflecting, and I came to a game plan. And basically game plan is this, cold email offer is transitioning. I'm just saying on five clients, it's gonna transition to a build, deploy and consult where I set everything up. I set up unique prospecting systems.

Ryane (04:21.404)
Nice.

Mitchell Keller (04:48.986)
And the pitch is, own the marketing channels of your business, own the value of your business, don't outsource it to someone else, which goes against all my agency competitors, which is fair enough. I feel I'm not trying to step on any toes, but I think this will be healthier for me and it's pretty easy for us to do. And just sold my first two clients on that offer actually this week. So pretty excited about that. And then actually opening up...

other marketing agencies to basically create a network of cashflow positive marketing entities that I can then start using to acquire SaaS businesses because I want to get into SaaS like you heading into mid 2024. I have a buddy that has been acquiring businesses for a while, is friends with the founder of acquired and he's going to help me out. But that's the vision because I want to start operating at higher leverage. So a bunch of marketing engines.

plugged into SaaS platforms is the long-term goal. And that's my way too long-winded explanation of who the fuck I am.

Ryane (05:56.006)
Nice, nice. That's perfect. I think I love the dynamic of one question and then you can go on where your brain takes you for as long as possible. It makes it a lot easier to do a podcast. It's really good. So what I think is really interesting is, you know, you said that you fell into the kind of running a business almost by accident. So and that was kind of due to

Mitchell Keller (06:05.914)
Hahaha.

Perfect.

Ryane (06:22.55)
the market that you entered. And then it's interesting how you actually felt the volatility of that market yourself, which made you probably made you have to be really, really good at the outreach that you were doing just because it's such a difficult market. Things change all the time. And now that you've switched into doing cold email and I know you're now not wanting to do as a done for you service.

but more of a build and deploy. I'd love to hear something about the kind of strategies that you can implement for your clients or that you can get them to implement that makes you different. Like, let's talk about the nuance. Where do you, what areas do you see yourself being able to do something that no one else is doing?

Mitchell Keller (07:15.81)
Yeah, a hundred percent for, for me, it honestly, it comes a lot down to the prospecting. I think, um, basically data and prospecting are someone's biggest advantage when it comes to cold outreach, because that's how you can generate that initial interest, the easiest, and that's how you can figure out if your offer is applicable as possible. Basically. So, you know, for initially our hiring clients, um, which is kind of the industry we started in.

Ryane (07:21.216)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (07:43.702)
A lot of that came down to setting up unique prospecting channels across specifically tech hiring platforms. So you have your dices of the world. And then, you know, I have another client that specializes in cyber.

Ryane (07:55.266)
Sorry, could you... Sorry, sorry, not to interrupt. You mentioned the Dices of the World. Could you expand a little bit more about what that means? Because I'm not familiar.

Mitchell Keller (08:04.287)
I should explain.

100%. So Dice is like a tech hiring platform. It specializes in only tech hires. And my clients wanted to find people where they could get tech hires. And the beauty of Dice is that because their website had, I'm not sure if you're familiar, UTM parameters, basically, if you look at a Google search on a website, you'll have forward slash blog, forward slash, etc. Right? Because every time you change the filter on that website, those parameters updated.

Ryane (08:12.618)
Hmm

Ryane (08:24.754)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (08:36.226)
you could actually do like complex URL scraping on specific web pages for specific things. So what did this like turn into? Basically, what we were able to do is have a system where we would literally scrape every single job posted across 20 different positions every 24 hours and then feed that directly into an enrichment tool like Apollo or the Dagma and turn that into contact info.

Ryane (08:44.135)
Mmm.

Ryane (09:03.923)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (09:05.462)
And we could specifically hone in on hiring managers. We could pull keywords from the job descriptions or the job posting and use it to personalize the message. And a whole bunch of different chat GPT flows that you can incorporate into that. But that's really where I think I differentiated myself. And that's actually why I think long-term, the most profitable thing for us will be to...

Ryane (09:16.565)
Nice.

Mitchell Keller (09:32.266)
set up these really, really intricate data flows and do this build and deploy offer. And the upsell is, hey, we will feed you super high intent data. You cannot get this from Apollo. No matter how many keywords you pin into the platform, this is tailor-made for your business. And I think it's just much more higher leverage, if that makes sense.

Ryane (09:48.372)
Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, that makes complete sense. And I think with stuff like that, not only is it higher intent, I think what people often forget is it's timely. It's people need it at that exact moment. So if someone is hiring for a specific role, that problem that they're hiring to fix is an issue. Like they really, really want to fix it. But when I've done campaigns like that, where I'm focusing, I'm sorry.

Mitchell Keller (10:08.942)
Yes.

Ryane (10:22.986)
where I'm focusing on such a specific data set, the quantity, like the volume has always been quite difficult for me. If you heard Peter say, what kind of volume ranges are you talking about here? How many meetings can you even get if the volume's too low?

Mitchell Keller (10:33.06)
Mm-hmm.

Mitchell Keller (10:43.634)
Yeah, I mean, with these, with these hiring platforms, thankfully everyone's hiring at different times. And thankfully it was within an industry that has like some tailwind, right? AI, tech, IT, like everyone needs cybersecurity. Everyone views these things as basically top of mind, right? Especially like machine learning positions, stuff like that. So, dude, honestly, every single day we were getting like 1200 job postings just from one site site. And then we added more sites to the flow. Right.

Ryane (10:52.519)
Mmm.

Ryane (11:00.33)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (11:12.566)
And all of a sudden you're looking at like, to be honest, more positions than we can even deal with. It's just there's so many people constantly hiring tech, whether it's for a full-time position or a contract position, whatever it may be. And the cool thing about this industry was that, you know, on close, basically, when our clients would close someone, they're making like 30 to 50K because salaries are so high and they charge a percent of salary. So we just charged.

Ryane (11:19.402)
Nice.

Ryane (11:40.647)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (11:42.298)
a percent on close basically. But I wanted to boil it down to a framework. And basically the way I look at cold email and marketing in general is this. Basically anytime you're doing cold outreach, you want to be thinking of a way to present to your prospect that you have put outsized effort into reaching them. And the way you can present outsized effort is by having great data.

And that data can be those job postings. That data can be something buried very deep or old on their website, like or an award that they got back in 2019. Like, you know, I actually, I was at the conference that you were at in 2019. And, you know, I remembered that you were good at this. And that's why I wanted to reach out today, whatever it may be. That's how you can break the loop of them just getting blasted with offer after offer and make it.

Ryane (12:17.515)
Mm.

Ryane (12:24.034)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (12:39.97)
about them at the end of the day. So I think presenting outsized effort in as easy a way as possible through good scraping and good automations is the goal.

Ryane (12:49.522)
Yeah, I 100% agree. And I think that statement can sometimes get confused with, if you personalize, you should expect a response because you've personalized. And like, what the new kind of way, at least in my mind of doing cold outreach, is previously you would have one SDR who, or multiple SDRs that would go.

Mitchell Keller (13:04.581)
Yeah.

Ryane (13:16.226)
person to person and manually find these specific things. Whereas now you build complex data flows where you can triage for reaching out to the right people about the right value proposition. And there's this, sometimes people talk about scale personalization as if it's lazy or if it's kind of like misrepresentative, but it's just changing where the effort is. Put the effort into

creating a really good lead list that matters and then reaching out about that rather than paying someone to do a menial task, which is literally just go check this, check that. And really, I think that's where AI is gonna make a huge difference because these small menial tasks are important, but they are delegatable. So I know your data flows is great, but I'd love to hear a little bit more now about.

how you use GPT and AI. I know you've got ways to personalize. I know you've probably got ways to filter using AI. I'd love to hear a bit more about that.

Mitchell Keller (14:22.242)
Yeah, sure. So like, for example, like, um, I'll just talk about something I'm working on right now, cause, um, I'm looking at getting kind of a video flow going. Um, the ways I use AI are almost always within a framework. Um, so if it's writing something, it's writing within the confines of a sentence I've already constructed. And then it basically just needs to fill in the blanks and that's because I don't trust AI and its level of variance to always have a solid output.

Ryane (14:31.316)
Mmm.

Ryane (14:36.876)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (14:50.894)
So basically what I'll do, and I would recommend this for anyone that's making like personalizations because it's relatively straightforward, really. You basically get GPT for sheets. You connect, um, you connect your API to it. And within the sheet, you'll have like data points, whether it's like the HTML data of a website or the SEO, or maybe the person's individual location, which is one that was really successful for me, actually, I got a 2.1% positive reply rate on.

Ryane (14:52.128)
Yeah.

Ryane (15:14.968)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (15:19.77)
just location based personalized lines. And basically I went through and I created a structure. Yeah, yeah, I was just going to get into that. I created a structure that was basically, you know, ever been to, or saw you're in blank, ever been to, noticed you're in blank, ever been to, noticed you're in here, ever been to.

Ryane (15:22.687)
And how did you do that?

Ryane (15:28.266)
Yeah, go ahead, my bad.

Mitchell Keller (15:42.494)
And basically the personalization would always be find something extremely nuanced about this location. Do not reference major landmarks, reference small, local, popular restaurants or blank or blank or blank. And we would get these really great outputs. And then there would be an if then statement, which is basically if you don't know anything that's nuanced and local and something that you would find in, you know, the depths of a Google review, then please make a joke.

about the major landmark, right? Make a joke about the tourists, make a joke about how hard it is to visit, whatever. And you would get outputs that were like, you know, the needle. Saw you're in Seattle, the needle, more vertigo inducing or great views, right? And it's just like super quick hitting, super casual, right? It's mentioning something that like is out of the ordinary for an AI to mention. And we saw a ton of great success here.

Ryane (16:15.118)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (16:40.306)
And again, it's really easy to do just in GPT sheets, add your prompt. And if you're not happy with the outputs, don't adjust your initial prompt. Actually, I would recommend adjust the secondary prompt. So actually make a prompt string. So take your old output, add another prompt layer, right? Where it's a new prompt to edit that one down into something better. Because once your prompts get super duper long, there's just too much noise for GPT to sift through. But.

Ryane (16:41.204)
Mm-mm.

Ryane (16:58.767)
Mmm.

Ryane (17:10.015)
100%.

Mitchell Keller (17:11.306)
Outside of that, other ways I use GPT, right? Mostly for data parsing. So say you scrape the HTML from a website. I like to use Relevance AI, it's really good at this. And it's basically like, it's basically like Lang chain, but in an app that's drag and drop, no code, you don't have to learn how to code Python or anything. But if you do, you're better at it. And basically I have a...

Ryane (17:17.707)
Mm.

Ryane (17:38.206)
And for people listening, what does Lang chain mean?

Mitchell Keller (17:39.942)
Uh, so laying, laying chain. Yeah. Laying chain is basically, uh, basically like the GPT connector. This is, this is the tool that you use to connect GPT to anything, anything you want. And this is how people create like complex workflows with GPT. And this is actually how people create what's called like a GPT wrapper. So all these AI tools out there, they're likely something to do with.

GPT, Lang chain, and then some other platform to connect the dots or some UI platform to make it look pretty. But you can do cool things like this. So say you scrape the HTML of a website, you can then go and ask GPT an if then statement. It can review the HTML at scale. And you'll be like, is there a video on this website? No, okay.

Ryane (18:15.21)
Mmm

Mitchell Keller (18:32.906)
If there's no video, then I would like you to find competitors based on the SEO description, GPT search, finds competitors, five of them. Now I would like you to scrape the competitor websites and find one that has a video in their HTML. Video in HTML, yes, right? Once they find one with a video in HTML, you can now create a campaign entirely centered around the fact that they don't have a video and their competitor does.

Ryane (18:40.834)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (19:01.814)
And this is what they're missing out on. Conversion rates, landing page stay time, lowering the bounce rates of your landing pages, turning visitors into customers, and you have a great basis to personalize off it. And now it looks like you researched their entire industry before you sent this email. So that's where I think GPT can get really cool. Parsing data.

Ryane (19:05.056)
Amazing, yeah.

Ryane (19:20.771)
Hmm.

Ryane (19:26.494)
Yeah, and I think, again, this is the stuff that, it's very simple for a human to check these things, but it's not feasible to do it at scale. And now you can do this, yeah. And again, you're still like delivering them value because you're highlighting to them something that they should care about, which is super important. And what I think is really interesting is the amount of effort you put.

Mitchell Keller (19:38.458)
thousands and thousands of websites, yeah.

Ryane (19:53.23)
to create full backs and to account for like hallucinations and to make sure it actually works. So what I'd like to know is, I think everyone listening can appreciate that that's obviously a really good campaign. But how long does working something out, working something like that take? Like how are you testing? How many times are you running it? How are you making sure that it's going to work?

at scale and you're confident about it.

Mitchell Keller (20:26.038)
Yeah, honestly, it used to take a lot more time, but I feel like we've just found the tools that work for us at this point, like we have Selenium, we have tech say you, we have certain, certain tools that we'll use to enrich websites. Certain tools that we'll use to kind of integrate GPT back in the day. Honestly, man, like that first hiring, uh, that was the first major one we came up with, like prospecting wise, that was like automated, super unique, super niche. That took like two weeks.

Ryane (20:50.167)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (20:54.646)
It took two weeks to set that up, but it's worth it because then you have a forever flow of prospects. You never have to hire anyone and you've learned a new skill nowadays. That like video one that took me like six hours. It was just, I sat down. I was like, okay, how do I make sure that someone actually needs a video? And how do I not sound like an idiot if they already have a video on their website? Right. Cause I, I can't just like check every website and I was like, okay.

Ryane (20:55.423)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (21:24.986)
Can HTML tell you like the HTML of a website, tell you if there's a video, will it be tagged? Lo and behold, I test like 50 websites that I randomly pulled and 50 out of 50, it was able to accurately tell and I just checked the work. I'm like, okay, that works. And then you test the next step. Okay, that works. And then you test the next step, right? So really it's just like quickly guess and check as you build out the system step by step.

Ryane (21:41.186)
Hmm.

Ryane (21:44.76)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (21:51.67)
And really these aren't that complex, right? They're, they're not super complex. And because you have AI taking care of a lot of the parsing work and, and AI is so accurate with data parsing, your outputs are great. It's not like trying to finagle AI into writing a blog post like you, like prompting that shit out can take days. But when it comes to stuff that's like data centric AI is the play.

Ryane (22:08.353)
Yeah.

Ryane (22:16.894)
100%. And I think the biggest pitfall of AI is the uncanny valley effect, which I thought was really interesting because it's for those people who don't know, it's things that are so close to being human-like, but just slightly off, creates a really strong sense of repulsion. So it will make, if you show someone a kind of AI generated image of a human that's like slightly off.

People report that they feel sick, they feel nauseous, stuff like that. Um, and you almost somehow still get it through the blog posts, through text. Like when you read something that's written by AI, you're just like, oh, really? Like this is a waste of time. I don't know if you've had this. I've had a lot of job applications. Um, but go on.

Mitchell Keller (22:50.935)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (23:09.246)
Yeah, no, I've had this for sure. And even just repulsion to like the X platform as a whole for a time there, just seeing the same kind of recycled garbage. And it amazes me that there's still a gap in the market where I see new applications coming out that are AI writers, especially GPT powered ones. Because I mean, it's very clear it's out there like Anthropic, Bard, both of these applications do a much better job.

of sounding human when they write. So why are more like GPT buzzword rappers coming out that do the exact same thing? You probably know better than me. You know, you're more of a SaaS guy. You have a better understanding of these kind of subscription services and how you find fit. But yeah, I think I think that basically wraps up kind of prospecting before I bore your entire audience.

Ryane (24:01.566)
No, no, I'm sure, I'm sure they're loving it. I'm sure they're, they're scheming the next, uh, cold email campaigns they're going to write. And just, if anyone doesn't know a GPT wrapper is essentially a software product that is, uh, it's called a wrapper because under the hood, it's just powered by GPT using their APIs, but they'll kind of tweak it to make it work for a certain use case. So for example,

Mitchell Keller (24:03.631)
Hehehe

Ryane (24:28.842)
It might be an AI tool that helps you use Excel. They'll tweak it a little bit. They'll put like a nice user UI user interface on top of it, but under the hood, it's still just GPT. So now, yeah.

Mitchell Keller (24:42.146)
Yeah, you can think of it like this. Like you have this large network, right? Of information, large language model. And inside of it, there's this pocket that they want to target in terms of information, and they're basically trying to tailor it to target that information only so it can be really good at quickly giving an output for either, you know, writing in a humorous tone or writing specifically in an optimized manner for Twitter or, you know, answering coding questions, whatever.

Ryane (25:08.366)
Mmm.

Ryane (25:11.742)
Yeah. Okay. Cool. Then it's all good. It's all good. Okay. And before we move on for prospecting, the one thing I did want to talk about is your value connect method. That was actually one of the first things that I saw when I was preparing for this. And I really like it because there's definitely a lot of similarities between that and, you know, why we started pitch lane and what I agree, I think is kind of the best approach. So.

Mitchell Keller (25:11.938)
But yeah, true, we should try and explain those things.

Mitchell Keller (25:30.082)
Mm.

Ryane (25:42.05)
Tell everyone about your Value Connect method please.

Mitchell Keller (25:46.422)
Yeah. So it's, it's interest value connect. And basically, basically it's a, it's a framework I came to after trying a lot of things and one of the things was actually, you know, pitch lane, uh, early days. Uh, which is why I was so surprised to meet you. I was like, man, I've tried this guy's product. This is pretty cool. A couple of months back, but, um, yeah, basically pitch lane came in a second to the outsized effort that is recording a personalized loom.

And not everyone can take that outsized effort, which is why your product is fantastic. However, basically, I was trying to get clients as fast as possible to prove that this cold email thing was going to work. So I put together this campaign structure that basically asks a curiosity-inducing question around a problem that they're facing in their business. That's the baseline, better to speak in frameworks. And anyone that showed interest, basically I say in my head, these people deserve outsized effort.

Ryane (26:15.803)
Mm, 100%.

Mitchell Keller (26:44.77)
Because you hear about these guys, there's like recording or paying someone to record like 500 videos a week or something, and then just send looms to everyone that's insane, wait for someone to respond positively. So you can prove that they're in a position where they have interest in your offer, and then you're going to provide the value and that value is in the form of a loom and for me, it meant giving everything away. So I would go to their website and basically make a tailored loom that went

the exact people they're targeting, where they could find their prospects, how they could personalize a campaign and what that would look like on the, like on the output. And their response was incredible. Like just, just incredible. Like positive reply to booked meeting was like 30 to 40%, which is extremely, extremely high. Typically you aim for like 15% in terms of like short, short-term turnaround, uh, at least in my experience. So I was like,

Ryane (27:40.836)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (27:43.626)
Oh my God, this is like working really well. So I doubled down and basically at the end of the loom, all you do is you say, Hey, all of this, you could spend six months or you could coordinate a team of four freelancers on Upwork over three months and spend 20 hours a week managing them, or if interested at all, you can book a quick strategy session with me and we can take a look at how this would look for your business and I was, and I would just say no obligation. I have a good one.

and just keep it super casual. Almost like I'm bored was the tonality and it worked fantastic. And I think anyone that's starting an agency should use that method right off the bat to get their first clients. And then once they're ready to scale, right? And really get like outsized volume, like 20,000 contacts a month, then you're probably gonna wanna switch to pitch lane and actually, you know, not spend every single waking moment of your life recording looms.

Ryane (28:23.618)
Hmm.

Ryane (28:42.194)
Yeah, a hundred percent. Like it's one of those things is at the start of running a business, you have lots of time and no money, but then quite quickly you end up switching them. So you have no time and then lots of money. And yeah, that is where, um, pitch lane does come in and the approach you described is the exact approach, which inspired pitch lane. And I think what would be really interesting now is

given where you end up going with like the data flows and everything to me, that is the perfect complimentary approach with pitch lane because pitch lane is more a magnifying glass on what you're doing. So if you can outline, Hey, you know, I reached out to you because of this reason, you're you provide these kinds of services. I could identify people who are suffering from your problem like this. This is the exact workflow.

personalize all the screens, I think that would be a really cool campaign to run. Maybe, maybe we could run one together at some point. But yeah, that's.

Mitchell Keller (29:45.91)
I think that would be insane. Yeah. I mean, I think my dream would be the moment someone hits positive reply. And this is what, this is why I kind of realized that my most success will come from just basically using these marketing principles to build my own businesses rather than build other people's businesses long-term is that you can put that kind of crazy effort where you have a system that will take a positive reply and just find out everything it can about them.

Ryane (30:09.546)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (30:14.006)
And then you open up that loom and you're just referencing all this stuff, you know about them like, Oh yeah. And like, I saw your case study in XYZ. You noticed you were talking about blank and that's why I wanted to tell you about this. And you just have this ocean of data for your, for your scripts, which I think would be crazy.

Ryane (30:19.918)
Hmm.

Ryane (30:28.566)
Hmm

Ryane (30:31.946)
Yeah, and that's definitely something that will be possible soon. So yeah, I think.

Mitchell Keller (30:36.258)
Definitely. It is possible. It's just about time and effort.

Ryane (30:39.742)
Yeah, yeah, I think, but I think, yeah, with like you mentioned, like relevance.ai, you're going to, we're going to soon have, um, some softwares that will be designed, some wrappers actually, funnily enough, that will be designed exactly on that use case. Um, cool. So now going into, we've spoken a lot about like the nitty gritty of, you know, your past experiences and. Yeah. The, the kind of expertise you have, but I want to talk a little bit more about kind of you now.

Mitchell Keller (30:51.865)
Yeah.

Ryane (31:10.334)
Um, a good place to start is usually why you've chosen the entrepreneur life. But what I think is quite interesting with you is that it sounds like you did have friends in the space, but you kind of fell into it almost what what's, what's kept you coming back for more. Why have you gone from one business to multiple? Why, why not just focus, get, get a skill, get a job? Why?

Where's the hunger from? What's the end goal?

Mitchell Keller (31:43.114)
Yeah, I find it, I find it really exciting. And I think the reason for multiple businesses is because I believe it's the path to much higher leverage and ultimately I have a lot of partners. So, uh, as a result of that, I'm really still only focusing on one thing. I know her Mosi always talks about focus on one thing outside, Steph or in one thing that's your path to domination. I'm presenting myself as someone that's focusing on many, many things, but in reality,

you know, whether I'm servicing 10 clients or I'm servicing five clients and I have four businesses, I'm still only doing the cold email, the marketing, the SEO. I'm only doing marketing and sales. So that out of the way. Why? Honestly, man, for me, I've always been dipping my toes into business. Business kind of happened by accident when it did and the outside success I was able to achieve. Like honestly, super fortunate to be put in that position. I recognize it.

Ryane (32:19.216)
Mmm, yeah.

Mitchell Keller (32:38.914)
all the time.

Mitchell Keller (32:42.638)
Despite that, every year from the age of like 16, I was always trying some scheme, whether it was drop shipping or a service related business or putting up some skills on Fiverr or doing random cold DMs to people or at one point fitness coaching, because I was really into fitness. I was always trying things and always helping my buddy with his e-commerce brands. I made some sales, but I wasn't killing it. And the goal behind that, honestly for me, was always just spending time with my parents.

Honestly, I have, you know, older parents. I was, uh, I was an accident is what you could say, you know, like my, my closest siblings, like seven years older than me, they were all born like back to back to back, and then I showed up, you know, so because I've had older parents, uh, I've been kind of aware of the fact that if I take too much time to build a career within a nine to five, I might not get the same amount of time that maybe I want with my parents. So.

Ryane (33:13.087)
Mmm.

Ryane (33:23.95)
Ha ha ha.

Mitchell Keller (33:39.266)
Yeah. To get a little bit more emotional on you. That's one of my big wise around entrepreneurship. Um, and yeah, I'm a, I'm a big family guy. You know, I've got nephews. I love my nephews. It's been absolute privilege, you know, being able to basically watch them grow up, uh, working in the plant as a, in radiation, that's always there as a backup plan for me, I pay 20 bucks a union dues every month, and it's a subscription fee to have a six figure job just sitting there, but

Ryane (33:54.766)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (34:08.374)
If I worked that job all this time, instead of diving into business the way I did, I want to be able to watch my nephews grow up, man. It's rotating night days, you know, it's destroying your body. You make a bunch of great money, sure. But I think there's something to be said about just building and creating something yourself, kind of working when you need to work, being able to allocate a weekend to working and then spend some time with your nephew on Monday or your dad on Friday, whatever it is.

Ryane (34:12.859)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Ryane (34:34.988)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (34:38.491)
That's the beauty of entrepreneurship for me. Honestly, it's not about the cars or the money, to be honest.

Ryane (34:44.914)
Nice, nice. I appreciate you giving such an honest answer. And that's, that is what it's all about. Um, so I'm interested to hear about the fact, you know, you're a family man, that your kind of parents mortality is something that really kind of motivates you. How do you balance that with the idea with a business? And I'm sure you get this where you, there's always more work to be done. There's always, you could always earn more. You could always do more.

How, where do you draw the line? How do you, some people do weekends to weekdays. I don't think that's a very good system. Doesn't sound like you do that either. So how are you, how are you balancing it out?

Mitchell Keller (35:25.13)
Yeah, I, uh, I kind of do the weekends to weekdays. Not really though. I, I basically Saturdays are all in family. Period. I am fully focused. I don't touch my phone. My phone basically is off the entire day. Like there's not a notification. I will check and that is full all in. And basically what I've tried to do, and honestly, my girlfriend's been a big help for me with this is that anytime I'm with family or with her.

Ryane (35:34.818)
Mm.

Ryane (35:40.846)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (35:51.522)
I'm all in that moment and anytime I'm in work, I'm all in that moment. And this was partially as a result of my girlfriend and another bit came from, uh, deep work by, uh, I believe it's maybe, maybe not Cal Newport. Who, who did deep work? I'm sorry. Deep work is a fantastic novel. Yes. Cal Newport. Fantastic novel. And basically it goes into the mechanisms of the minds, the, the greatest in

uh, the greatest producers in the history of mankind and the systems that they used. And basically it comes down to a framework and that's, you know, if you can put in a incredible focus for short bursts of time, you can get five to 10 X done. And it sounds unbelievable and sounds like some sort of life hack, some sort of BS, but it's the truth. I introduced Pomodoro into my life and I introduced, you know, things that block out distracting applications. I put my phone in the other room.

Ryane (36:44.617)
Hehehehe

Mitchell Keller (36:50.794)
I wake up and I start working right away. I don't listen to music actually 99% of the time. And as a result, for example, on Monday, I woke up and I wrote four 1200 word blog posts in two hours. That happens only when you are able to get into deep, deep focus. So I think a lot of people in this hustle culture kind of think that...

You know, it's all about the number of hours you put in, but really it's about the work that you put out and reframing that kind of mindset and having clear goals and clear tasks along your journey and making sure you hit those tasks every day makes it a lot easier to leave work at work and then spend time with family for me and again, Deep work by Cal Newport and girlfriends kind of nagging me for staying, keeping my head in work.

When the day's done, uh, was a big help, but it took me 18 months of business to get there, man. Honestly, I was a workaholic. I worked 80 hours a week when I first started and don't, don't knock yourself for doing that in the early days, man. It's hard not to.

Ryane (37:52.155)
Mm.

Ryane (37:58.578)
Yeah, a hundred percent. I definitely had a similar experience where I was working ridiculous hours. There was a point where I was in Australia and I was getting up to do calls at 8 AM because that overlapped with the Pacific time and then staying up till like nine to 12 PM to do calls with, um, the UK and those, that was a ridiculous amount of work getting put in. I was where I was staying.

Mitchell Keller (38:09.015)
Oh nice.

Ryane (38:26.986)
was actually really far out. So it didn't make sense to go home in the middle of the day. So I'd kind of just lounge around trying to be productive. You know, I'm clocking in a lot of hours at that point. And then we had a shift of focus internally in the business. So we then started working on a different area, which is where we actually run cold email campaigns for people as long side the SaaS, but this is just that. And three months go past.

Mitchell Keller (38:38.276)
Mm-hmm.

Mitchell Keller (38:50.831)
Mm-hmm.

Ryane (38:55.914)
And I expected, you know, the sass to just drop because I felt, you know, I was smashing out these hours to make sure everything would work. And lo and behold, that didn't happen. A lot of what I really thought was moving the needle, what I was breaking my back to do turned out to be by and large useless. And I think a lot of people say that when you work less hours,

You produce better work, you have more context, you have the ability to zoom in and out, and you actually, it's actually better to work less. But it's quite a scary feeling to like pull out because you feel like if you don't, if you stop, the house of cards will come like tumbling down. So yeah.

Mitchell Keller (39:46.934)
Yeah. No, I think, I think that's also a great perspective of the, you know, being able to zoom in and out kind of that factor and also being able to take time to reflect. Like you didn't have that moment to reflect on what the impact of your work was. I think, you know, for me, a big, big boon to that side of things, the ability to reflect is just having end of day reporting as a standard in the business. So all the partners, all of my employees, it's very straightforward every day.

A tally form, you submit it. It gets auto indexed into a Google drive, uh, in GPT parses the data. And it creates a list of things you've been doing where efforts been allocated rough time towards effort, and it does a few things for the business. We can see where we should be hiring. Basically. We can see if some shit's taking way too much time. Like for me, before we implemented these automated systems, Oh man.

Ryane (40:35.426)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (40:42.75)
I was spending like, I had no idea. I was spending like 12 to 16 hours every week, just prospecting and enriching. I was like, this cannot be the best use of my time. There is no way. So that ability to zoom out, it can come from systems, but like you said, it can also come from just having time to think and not just being in tasks, which tasks, which go, go. So that makes a huge difference. Great point.

Ryane (40:51.083)
Wow.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Ryane (41:08.974)
Interesting, yeah, yeah. And I think that's interesting how you could use GPT and these systems to zoom out for you. I think that's a really cool use case. Interesting. So one thing that I think would be interesting to talk about now is from, let's say, the point at which you finished your job at the plant and today.

Mitchell Keller (41:20.782)
Mm-hmm.

Ryane (41:40.106)
How have your business experiences changed your outlook on the world and on like life in general? If you could try and think of something where like there's been a big shift. So I'd imagine you're probably always a family person, but what's been a big shift for you?

Mitchell Keller (42:03.702)
tough question. A big shift through business. I think

I think the biggest shift for me is my ability to stay focused on one thing and persevere. Because of Web3 and the amount of ups and downs it had, I kind of went to some dark places to be honest, right?

Ryane (42:18.435)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (42:35.15)
Like from its highest highs to literally its lowest lows. And basically what in the business world, two months, the blink of an eye, having clients message you and say that they are going out of business because their money was in the platform that blew up and it's like, Whoa, what just happened? Right. You start doing outreach. People that you outreach to are like, actually we have no interest in marketing. Now the market, you know, is dead. And you're like, wait, is no one like, is there even a pathway to get clients anymore? And then.

Ryane (42:36.311)
Yeah.

Ryane (42:42.817)
Yeah.

Ryane (42:53.211)
Yeah.

Ryane (43:04.63)
Hmm

Mitchell Keller (43:05.442)
Having that moment looking back now, it's a principle. It's like PPS. Do you, do you pivot? Do you persevere? Do you scale given the current situation based on the data that you have? Right. And that was the biggest thing, man. Perseverance. I like, I went crazy all over again, reading books, relearning sales, increasing my closing rate, great book, new age of selling by Jeremy Lee minor. That doubled, tripled my closing rate just from reading it.

Ryane (43:22.38)
Mm.

Ryane (43:26.64)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (43:34.758)
And just putting in this insane effort and having this insane level of self self-belief that honestly I didn't have when I was uh before business I didn't have it. It actually took the failures and then continuing and then realizing that there's no way I want to go back to working a nine to five um and just believing in myself and continuing to push through that you know took me back to 40k hit another road box.

Ryane (43:53.154)
Hmm

Mitchell Keller (44:02.362)
block with FTX imploding. I'm sure people have heard of it. Tom Brady lost like $300 million in that. Right. So huge news market crashes again, two of my clients at that time, my major ones blew up, couldn't do business anymore. They were on Solana and that was affected heavily by FTX and just repeating the cycle a third time and just believing in myself, like I'm going to make this work. I think that's the big thing is that that's up leaf. Cause I, I honestly, before that I used to

Ryane (44:23.158)
Hmm.

Ryane (44:26.546)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (44:31.598)
I used to hop on something new and then try it for three months and then switch basically and constantly be switching instead of like giving it time.

Ryane (44:36.214)
Hmm. Yeah.

Ryane (44:40.402)
Yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think that's definitely something a lot of people can relate to. And sometimes you don't know whether you should stick or whether it's your shiny object syndrome that's making you switch or whether it's a well-reasoned decision. And I think it can be really difficult to know that.

Mitchell Keller (44:54.992)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (44:59.254)
It's really hard to, because man, people go on social media, they're encouraged to be on social media as a business owner and to be posting, and all they ever get to see are these insane success stories, right? Like, and honestly, you know, one, a lot of them aren't true and they don't go into detail about like what it took to get there. Like when I say my email agency went from zero to six clients in 30 days,

Ryane (45:08.695)
Hmm.

Ryane (45:19.617)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (45:26.794)
It doesn't include the fact that I've ran, I ran another agency for two years. You know, that was very successful for a first agency for sure. Right. It doesn't take that into account. So people see all these videos of like, Oh, I started a YouTube shorts, uh, empire. And you know, it's generating me $246,000 a month and it only takes me five hours a week. So they see all these people that get insane reward for very little effort. And that's all that they see in their data feed. They don't see.

Ryane (45:52.354)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (45:56.518)
hardship. They see success reflected on in hindsight rather than the journey in the moment. And I think if people saw more of other people's journeys in the moment, they would realize that almost everything takes more time to accomplish than you think. Whether it's development or building an agency or launching your first freelance offer.

Ryane (46:18.795)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (46:24.214)
Everything's going to take more time than you think and just be patient and be happy with it.

Ryane (46:30.622)
I completely agree. I think that's the one thing that always really surprises me still. It's just, and maybe I need to have a look at deep work, but I always underestimate how long something's going to take. If it's starting a new, creating a new data flow, or if it's adding a new feature to the SAS, we're always, things bloat so easily and so quickly. Yeah, I agree. It can be really.

really difficult. And if you if you'd be open to it, I'd love to learn a little bit more around the unglamorous side, kind of what you just mentioned there. What's it like being in a company where you've just hit a record month, you know, you're a million dollar company or you're kind of projected to be and then in the next, you know, not even two months, three months later, you're

you've dropped by a huge amount. How does that feel? What's your day to day like? Do you wake up, like, are you raring to go to get out of bed? Are you struggling to get out of bed? Is it affecting, you know, your relationships? What's it like on a day to day?

Mitchell Keller (47:42.91)
Yeah, let's get into it. I think, um, honestly, the first, the first thing was, well, first off, like we had a million in, in 10 months. It wasn't projection. Um, I like to, I like to be clear about that. And, uh, cause I, I don't want to miscommunicate, uh, what the business was. Uh, I, I would never say like something like I hit my first 10 K month and now I'm a hundred K business. I think that's a bit misleading. Um, so basically.

Ryane (47:43.723)
Um.

Ryane (47:53.175)
Mmm, okay.

Mitchell Keller (48:11.294)
When it happened, man, honestly, like at first I had this extreme overconfidence that everything was going to be fine. Uh, the first month as like clients were disappearing, I was like, it's fine. I didn't like that client anyway. I wasn't really reflecting on anything that had just happened. I assume more clients would be on the way. Basically wasn't keeping track of my churn. I was still really an amateur business owner, even though I had like 15 employees. Then.

Ryane (48:39.01)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (48:40.714)
a few more businesses left and around the six week mark, I was like, okay, I have all these employees that are on, you know, contract based payroll, but also like some of them are really high skill and I have to keep up work. And like the depressing thing was just thinking about like all these people that were relying on my business for a paycheck, including, you know, at the time, actually my, my brother in law.

Like my, I had my sister's, uh, my sister's husband working for me. And just thinking about that, and then thinking about the trickle down effect, like now my sister's going to be disappointed in me, or can I tell my girlfriend this and yeah, I'll be honest, man, like getting out of bed was not easy. There was a good, there was a good, probably two months there of not putzing around, but just like not eager to do anything and like trying to find a way out.

Ryane (49:15.455)
Hmm.

Ryane (49:26.784)
Yeah.

Ryane (49:30.72)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (49:39.01)
Um, trying to not just find a way out of the business, but trying to, or sorry, way out of the situation, but even trying to find a way out of the business. Like, do I pivot? Right. Do I find something new? Do I find that next shiny object? Is this the thing for me? Um, are my partners right? Honestly, a lot of like blame being passed around between each of us on the situation at hand. So a lot of infighting and then as a result, a lot of growth, honestly.

Ryane (49:52.475)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Ryane (50:02.934)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (50:08.586)
Uh, eventually, you know, after the two months, I had to kind of sit down and like reflect properly and look at all the mistakes I made and then look at a clear pathway to clear that up. And that's when we started creating like mission documents within the business that are three months long, right. And these mission documents kind of set your dick, three set purpose, set out clear milestones because before.

Growth was like, honestly, stupid, simple. It was like send some campaigns, send a good offer, hop on a call and basically everyone would close. So we had to have like really delineated structures. Like how many DMs do we send a day? How many cold emails do we send a day? How many calls does this result in? Who takes the calls and really just grow up? So yeah, even during that next like three months of rebuilding, it was some days, tons of self belief, extreme overconfidence.

This is going to happen. And then honestly, man, like way too much emotion when we got a no, where I thought we would get a yes or way too much emotion when I created like this really detailed marketing strategy to pitch them on. Right. And you know, they leave me on read and I'm like, Holy shit. Is all this effort ever going to pay off? And it did, but you didn't, you didn't know it. So yeah, honestly, man, like I was, I was pretty damn depressed. I was.

Ryane (51:14.71)
Yeah.

Ryane (51:29.859)
Yeah.

Ryane (51:36.586)
Hmm. Yeah, no, that, that sucks. And I can completely, um, imagine how that feels. Cause when it, when it's going up, it's amazing. Everyone's happy. And then there's also a lag. So what, what makes it go down? You don't know that those actions are causing it for a while. And then also I've found is whilst it's going down, there's nothing you can do to stop it going down in the immediate. You just have to hope that what you do fixes it.

Mitchell Keller (51:56.504)
Yeah.

Ryane (52:06.439)
And that can be really tough as well. And what I think is interesting in terms of like... Go on.

Mitchell Keller (52:07.438)
in the future, yeah.

Yeah, what you do now is going to affect the business three months out or what have you. But yeah, go on.

Ryane (52:16.398)
Exactly, exactly. No, no, you're right. What I thought was interesting was the kind of internal impact it had with you and your partners. How'd you go about rebuilding? How'd you draw a line under it? How'd you address that?

Mitchell Keller (52:36.034)
Yeah, honestly, it was a lot of recreating trust. And for me actually, because I was kind of the marketing side of the business for the most part, it was a lot of just me kind of pushing it and saying, like it was this really, really long heart to heart that was basically came down to trust me guys, I'm gonna make this work, basically.

Ryane (52:50.009)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (53:03.958)
And I kind of took the, took the reins, took it upon myself, really finally took up like, I would say like the leadership role and spurred them on and coordinated and, um, kind of regrouped, I would say, because they were feeling the same way I was. And we just, I think at the time you just need someone that even if it's fake belief, at least has belief. So.

Yeah, I just, I just went ahead and I set out a trajectory. I had no idea if it was going to work by basically every single day. I told everyone that this shit's going to work. Stay patient. This shit's going to work. Stay patient. And that like, honestly, man, like any turn to sort of internal strife, I think in a business can be circled back to a lack of direction and purpose. And once everyone has a purpose or a direction to aim towards a lot of the, you know,

whatever blaming or strife, it gets deleted. It gets deleted pretty quickly. It doesn't become top of mind because it's less important than the mission, period. Like we're all in on business. They all had a fire under them. I think part of it was like, guys, if we were able to do this last year, even in a worst market, why can't we do it again, period.

Ryane (54:06.05)
Mmm.

Interesting.

Mitchell Keller (54:27.662)
Right? Like why, why can't we do it again? It's almost like that Derek Rose speech. Why, why can't I be the best player in the league? Why can't I be the MVP? Like when he's in his rookie season, I don't know if you know that speech, but that that's stuck in my brain. Like, why does no one believe in me? Well, it doesn't matter. Let's believe in ourselves. So really it's just like fake confidence, honestly, fake confidence can get you pretty far.

Ryane (54:36.738)
Mm-hmm.

Ryane (54:48.342)
Hmm. Nice. Yeah, yeah. And you, you do need some level of like delusion. Yeah. Nice.

Mitchell Keller (54:53.674)
It sounds ridiculous, but a delusion, yes. It was, it was. And also not just delusion, but being a cult leader and spreading your delusion to your partners a little bit.

Ryane (55:00.115)
Yeah.

Ryane (55:07.816)
Yeah, so if business doesn't work out, you've always got a fallback as a cult leader or in the nuclear power plant.

Mitchell Keller (55:14.922)
Yes, yes, yes. It's my, uh, my, uh, my girlfriend always says I'd make a great cult leader, great cult leader.

Ryane (55:22.542)
Nice, nice. Okay and quite fitting is kind of like the last question and I feel like you've kind of already said this but would you say you have any particular weird life hacks or like kind of rituals that you do, small things that you think kind of that maybe others don't do that take you to that higher level?

Mitchell Keller (55:24.492)
There.

Mitchell Keller (55:47.266)
Yeah. I mean, I'm not a big believer in, in life hacks for the most part. I think, uh, I ascribed to like just doing the work, but I will say this. When I introduced saunas, especially as someone that lives in the Northern hemisphere where days get really short and your sleep cycle can kind of get messed up by it, um, and like what the time switches man, saunas have been insane for me, like normally in winter, I am way less productive.

just getting in the sauna like 40 to 60 minutes a week, it makes I sleep like a baby and sleep is everything. So if like, if there's one hack for business, it's literally just sleep well and have a damn checklist that you make the night before. A checklist, especially written on paper, right? Of things you're gonna do. You can pick these up for like eight bucks on Amazon, like 200 of them to-do list. And they're really nice. They sit there.

Ryane (56:24.965)
Mm.

Ryane (56:40.853)
Yeah.

Mitchell Keller (56:45.006)
You cross off a task, you get that hit of dopamine, you carry on. And then the final life hack I have for anyone is what I call a written knowledge base, and this is like the notion second brain, but taken down to grassroots. If you've ever heard of it by a Tiago Tiago, something you can find them on YouTube, Tiago second brain. And yeah, you, you just start knowledge bases around certain topics on cue cards. So if you are learning something, actually learn it, finish the video.

Ryane (56:49.062)
Mm.

Mitchell Keller (57:15.766)
write a clear title to create, turn it into a framework, right? How to create SEO content. You can see on this one and then draw a picture related to the topic on the back. It's insane. It makes it so you can remember things super easily. You create your own knowledge base. And then if you're ever bored and you want to grab your phone, you can just flip through your knowledge base. And you're like, wow, uh, like for here, like this is about her Moses book,

Ryane (57:19.831)
Mmm.

Ryane (57:27.605)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (57:44.994)
Um, on the back, it's just, you know, basically like my interest value connect email campaign as a way for me to solidify the, the knowledge and connected to other knowledge that I have. Right. So those would be my three hacks, but really it's just, you know, I think, you know, living, living competently.

Ryane (58:05.21)
Nice, nice. No, I think that's a good one because I think it's very easy to know about things like this but not do them. Like for example, I don't do anything similarly to that but I just wrote down that you know that is a really useful thing to do and I do I think doing taking a to-do list and actually writing it down on a piece of paper or in your notepad I think is so good because there's only so much you can fill up.

one page of your notebook, whereas with when you have you know to-do lists in Notion they just get so long because they can just scroll forever, whereas it does get to a point where if I'm writing a to-do list and I need to go on to another page I'm like okay let's take a step back is it do it do I actually need to do all of this because I think quite often we do things that don't move the needle because you know

Mitchell Keller (58:52.326)
That's enough. Yeah.

Ryane (59:02.922)
You might have felt like it did a few hours ago, but it's not actually that important.

Mitchell Keller (59:08.994)
To add to that actually quickly, um, this is kind of from Sahil bloom. And it's something I introduced at the beginning of this year, but basically it's just start your day with three tasks, like really think what are three tasks that will make my day good today. If I get them done and just that will help you prioritize and then on the back, write some extras and these are extra optional tasks. So this way, if you have a bad day.

Ryane (59:11.523)
Mm.

Ryane (59:24.64)
Mmm. Yeah.

Ryane (59:34.743)
Hmm.

Mitchell Keller (59:37.538)
And you only get the three done. You still won because these are the three that you said you had to get done. And if you have a great day and all those subtasks get done and you flip the page, you're killing it. You win either way. And I think winning and building up that momentum of wins is really important because I used to have these seven long tasks lists. And if I only got four done, I'd be like, I failed today. Wow. I can't believe I didn't get more done.

Ryane (59:50.438)
Mmm, yeah. I like that. I like that.

Ryane (01:00:02.926)
Mmm.

Mitchell Keller (01:00:04.802)
I, and you, you build up that little bit of negative self-talk that ruins your momentum, but yeah, just small things.

Ryane (01:00:11.522)
No, I really like that. And I really liked the idea of flipping it because it creates that, that even higher level of success. And also, you know, you go through your list and there's always the temptation that one's at the bottom, but it will take, it will take 20 minutes. So I'll do that. And then it actually takes an hour. And then it, yeah, that's really cool. Yeah. The founder of smart lead, one of the advice. Yeah. 100%.

Mitchell Keller (01:00:29.106)
Yes, that's important. Yes.

Mitchell Keller (01:00:35.266)
I'll do that all the time, man. Yeah, I'll do that all the time if I see those small tasks.

Ryane (01:00:42.57)
Nice, that's really cool. That's really cool. And yeah, like lots of other business owners use that. Some people call it the one big task. And I think, yeah, making something so you just can define success for a day is really good. And I like that you have like two levels of success. So you can have a good day and a great day.

Mitchell Keller (01:01:01.494)
Yeah, exactly. I think that's important, right? Like not every day is going to be perfect and it shouldn't be right. So don't beat yourself up.

Ryane (01:01:05.143)
Mm. Yeah.

Ryane (01:01:10.43)
Nice, nice. Well, I think that's a perfect note to end it on. This has been a really great interview. I've really enjoyed speaking with you, learning more about, you know, yourself, the tough times you've had, the kind of ways you've learned from going to being, from being an amateur business owner to one who I think is really got about to blow up. And I think it's great to hear also the more technical side of things. I appreciate you coming on. And if people want to reach out to you,

I'm sure you have quite a few different services that you can offer them. Do you want to list them off and where they can find you as well?

Mitchell Keller (01:01:47.906)
Yeah. I mean, uh, in terms of services, you know, if you guys need something, let me know, but I'm not, I'm not really looking to sell anything on here. Uh, I like to keep my public facing kind of stuff, just completely sales agnostic, cause I just want to provide value to people kind of her Mosie style. Let's say, but if you want to find me and you want to reach out to me and you want to chat with me, uh, X is the best place it's at Mitchell Keller underscore. If you can't reach out to me and you're not verified, no worries, just comments on one of my posts.

Let me know that you wanted to DM me and you couldn't I'll DM you and we can start up a conversation. Always happy to chat with people. Always happy to help out. And, uh, yeah, it, it fuels me. I like being able to help people.

Ryane (01:02:29.598)
Nice, nice, amazing. Thank you very much. Speak soon. Cheers, mate.

Mitchell Keller (01:02:34.235)
Cheers.